The Great UFO DebateTalk Radio UK - August 21st, 1995
Thanks to Eileen Mulvihill, for posting on the newgroup the transcription of Scott Chisham's UFO Today show, that was aired shortly after the Bufora Conference in England including Ray Santilli ..... ILLINOIS
From: email@example.com (Eileen Theresa Mulvihill)
Subject: The Great UFO Debate - Talk Radio UK
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:27:59 GMT
Talk Radio UK [f=10.53-10.58a.m.] 21-8-95 on Scott Chisham's `UK Today' slot, gave stage to a rather interesting UFO debate. Amongst the participants were:
SC [Scott Chisholm] : Talk Radio Host.
PW [Philip Walton] : Director of BUFORA.
JB [Jeremy Barrett] : Polygrapgh Expert.
RS [Ray Santilli] : : Hell you know by now!
RB [Rachael Bilman] : Abductee >:)
C#x [Caller Number x..] : Various Members of the UK Public.
NB. This file is in 5 Parts to aid in its digestion.
Part I - Intro. Hastings Abduction Case. Observation Of Witnesses Challanged. Part II - UK Callers - Including: General Speculation. Octagonal Ship near Manchester. Petrovska Phenomena. Part III - Abductee, Rachael Bilman speaks. Part IV - Ray Santilli is hooked up to the debate. UK Callers - Including: Roswell Crash. X-shaped UFO. The Autopsy Footage Itself. Part V - UK Callers - Including : Ex Air-Force Person Relates His Experience. The Government Coverup? Ian Morrison, radio astronomer. BUFORA Contact # & Address.So lets see what they all had to say...
[ PART I ]SC : UFO's is the debate this hour. The question I'm asking is "How do we explain the inexplicable?" The 8th International UFO Conference finished yesterday in Sheffield. Hence the reason for the debate today. A galaxy of experts examined the evidence, and they delivered the results of years of research into the physical nature of what they call `Anomolous Phenomena'. -It's easy for you to say . Matters like UFO's and creatures of Outer Space. Those attending the conference were treated to a film-show too. The so-called `Roswell Incident' to be precise. A much hyped film, supposedly shot in 1947 after the mysterious crash of a strange craft near the Roswell Air-Force Base in New Mexico. The b&w footage supposedly shows humans in white radiation suits preforming an autopsy on aliens. Some say it's a hoax. An American Congressman thinks there has been a massive Government coverup. It seems the American Air-Force has now abandoned its claim that the crash was caused by a high-altitude weather balloon. A lot of the documents have been destroyed. Understandable over a period of 50yrs, or just convenient? ... The possibility of extra-terrestrial life has fascinated us for centuries. Think of the money-spinning films. `E.T', `Close Encounter of the Third Kind'. But are we any closer to the answers? Well I don't know. But a couple of gentlemen are in the studio with us, and they might well do. Jeremy Barrett's here with us, the lie-detector expert. SC - Good to see you Jeremy. JB - Hi there. Phillip Walton is Director of the British Unidentified Flying Objects Research Association. SC - (STRUGGLES with name) PW - BUFORA. And a member of the Association for Scientific-Studies of Anomolous Phenomena. SC - Phillip Good-Afternoon. PW - Hello. SC - Nice to see you. SC - Ahhm .. You're a bunch of nuts aren't you?[Part II]
PW - Thanks. Not all of us believe in extra-terrestrials actually coming to this planet. UFO's are Unidentified Flying Objects. 90% of all the cases that we get in are actually explained as natural phenomena. It's the core that's left -between 5 and 10- which cause the controversy. And the division is, some believe that it's aliens from Outer Space; others believe that it's natural phenomena yet to be explained. I think some of them just fall into the category of we haven't got enough information and we just don't know. SC - Now Jeremy, you can tell a lie from a hundred paces. JB - Only with my little magic instrument. Yes. SC - Now you.. JB - And I have actually tested a number of people who have claimed that they've been abducted, sexually investigated by aliens and extra-terrestrial beings. Now I tested them -was asked to test them- to find out whether they were trying to sort of jump on a money-wagon or what. And there is absolutely no doubt, that these people were telling the truth. *But* if you, truely, truely, believe that you were Napoleon Bonapart, and I put you om a Polygraph instrument, you would come through as being truthful. Now I'm not saying that people that have seen UFO's are nutty. But it could be in their minds. I mean, I have a very, very open-mind. I believe that there is much more to the Universe than what we can see. I mean, that Roswell film was probably Ronald Regan being prepared for Presidency, or something like that . But, you know, there's always explanations. And on Saturday night I watched the VJ day fireworks -which were absolutely stunning- and then realised there was a UFO up there. But it was actually a helicopter very high up, filming the fireworks. But you can see how things like that happen. When aliens take people from their beds. And return them to their beds the next morning, with punctures in the stomach and 50 pence- piece sized bits of scalp removed, and obvious internal bruising. One does begin to think, hang-on, hang-on, hang-on; this is not something that somebody's done to themselves. A woman who was on her own in a house near Hastings, was aware suddenly of people -and it's amazing how very similiar all their descriptions are of the people that they've seen; they're sort of nose-less, wide-eyed, slightly almondy-ovally eyes and greyish or metallicish or whatever. And she was aware of these people around the bed. She was then aware of looking down on her own house. And she was taken into something that felt metallic. She was laid on a table -or a bench of somekind which felt metallic- but she couldn't, it was no substance that she was..it wasn't formicra, it wasn't metal, it wasn't tin. You know, she didn't know what it was, but it looked metallic. Her clothes were removed. She had no sense of embarrassment or fear, at that point. Nobody spoke to her -by vocal means. But they were communicating with her through her head. They were actually putting thoughts into her mind, and she was answering questions which they were asking her. They did various things to her. They inserted something into her stomach, just by her naval. And she was somehow able to know what they were doing. They were investigating her insides. She didn't like it, but she wasn't petrefied. She felt..the only pain she felt was a sharp pain at the back of her head at one point. She woke up in bed the next morning. Became back in her own bed the next morning, covered in blood. I mean, she looked as though she'd been severly beaten up. She got herself to hospital. They found a hole in her naval -just below her naval- equivalent to you taking that ball-point pen that you have, and pushing it into a body. Internal examination by the doctors and so forth, showed that there was severe bruising around the mouth of the womb and so on and so forth. And on the back of her head there was this bald- patch, where the roots, the hair, and everything had been removed. And a little circle, about 50p wide. Now all this is confirmed by the doctor. She had the medical report of that examination. Now if you could grab hold of my hair -which would be a bit of a problem on account of the..your listeners don't know I have long flowing locks, described as slightly bald. But if you could pull my hair, you might pull out a couple of roots, you might pull off some hair, you might snap some hair. But the chances of cleanly removing every single root in a 50p sized piece of skin. Pretty remote. There's something there. There is something there. SC - And this person from Hastings was telling you the truth when she was relating the story. JB - Absolutely. Absolutely. SC - You were nodding your head . PW - Well I've heard of cases very similar. Yes. There are many cases that. You know, these are the classic conditions that are given. JB - But you're not going to lie in bed and stab yourself in the stomach with a ball-point pen and shave your head .. PW - Oh no. JB - ..and then shout "Alien, alien" are you? PW - No. But you have to try and pull back and look at other cases that have been looked at. We do a lot with the Anomolous Phenomena, where we/I've actually seen and recorded some pretty amazing things. And I've actually been with people at the time when they've seen some amazing things. And it's, it's very difficult to pigeon-hole. If you come across.. JB - Sorry. You've been with them when *they* have seen them. Is that meaning that you didn't see them? PW - Oh no I've seen some.. JB - Oh Right. PW - ..some strange things. But.. SC - I have to. I want to come to that in a moment. PW - Oh yes, well we really want to listen to that as well . But yeah. Some of these things, it depends on. I've got quite an open-mind. And some of the things that have happened -I just take them at face value- I have no explanation for. And we try and study to find out what's going on, using electronic equipment etc. Some people have to put them into a pigeon-hole. They have to have a reason. And it can be Alien Abduction, it can be seeing a ghost, it can be anything. It gets labelled. JB - (UMM). PW - Humans hate having something floating around unexplained. So we have to give an explanation. Now -I mean, I don't know the back ground history to that particular case- and it really does take a lot of detailed investigation to try and get any further, but I would say with all these cases a phenomena happens. We don't disbelieve that something happened to them. But everybody puts their own interpretation. I can give you a very simple example of how good witnesses are. We used to run some evening classes -when we got the time- on Paranormal Studies. And one evening was devoted to observation. And we'd actually have a camera-man -a collegue of mine- who would wander around for the first evening. The second evening, he'd actually come up and start taking some pictures. And change the film in front of me. One time we actually went the full length and had a good two minute heated debate, and he stormed out of the room. The whole class were looking at us horrified. And I said, "Right, it was all stage-managed, describe him. You got a pen and paper in front of you". Oh right. And they wrote down a description. And his height ranged from about 5'3-6'2.. SC - Sure. PW - ..beard-no beard, balding-not balding, smart trainers-shoes, jeans, the lot. I actually described him as Simon the Camera-man, and only one person out of thiry remembered he had a camera around his neck and was holding a camera. SC - (SNIGGER). PW - I asked them to draw a line underneath and then descrbe the badge he was wearing and the case he was holding. Half couldn't remember it. But the other half gave very vivid descriptions. Most of them differed. Some were very similar. Now that was quite interesting, because he wasn't wearing a badge and he didn't have a case. SC - (LOW LAUGH). PW - So you know. If you ask someone for a description of something and they haven't seen it, they will still give you a description.. JB - Oh.. PW - ..because they feel they have to. JB - You ask any police-man -the poor souls- I mean, they ask for a description, and they ask over, and over, and over again. Because they actually have to, without putting what they want the person to have seen, into their minds. People, really do not observe. PW - No. JB - *But* I do feel that if something suddenly catches your eye. Something as extraordinary as a flying saucer, or whatever, I do feel that you sort of notice it. SC - :) JB - People who've never noticed one, have never seen one. SC - In a moment I'm going to be talking to someone who has, believes she's gone through an experience similar to the one that you related Jeremy.. JB - Umhum. SC - .. to the woman in Hastings. SC - First of all lets just hit the phones before we go to a break.
C#1 SC - Donna's in London. Donna, Good-Morning, you're on Talk Radio UK. D - Hello. SC - Hi. D - Hi. I do believe there are aliens. I don't really see how anyone can't believe they are. The Universe is so vast. There are that many stars. I mean, we can see the stars, but we can't see the planets around them, let alone see if there's life on them planets. SC - There are a billion*billion other galaxies out there. PW - Yeah. Well I mean, I don't think anyone would disagree that there could be other life-forms in other planets, I think, I mean, NASA's been doing searches for years. A lot of money has been put into trying to contact. We even put little epitaphs and little drawings on the side of our space-ships, in case they happen to bump into someone. So you know, a lot of money is spent assuming that there might be life out there. And I don't think anyone would disagree with it. In a research organisation, you know, trying to get evidence that they've actually come to Earth, you're trying to uncover evidence that they do keep coming all the way here and then crashing in the last 20'. I mean there's so many crash-retrieval stories. There's very little actual physical evidence that ever comes to light. JB - Careless aliens. PW - "Careless aliens?" Yes. They seem to get all the way here, then celebrate too quickly. So.. JB - But I mean, when you hear highly trained jey fighter pilots, describing..I mean there you are xthousand feet up, you're on your own and you're travelling at quite a substantial speed, and you are pretty aware of the fact that you are probably the only person up there, apart from maybe a Concorde or whatever. But because you keep away from those routes and so forth. When you suddenly find somebody with you. And I'm not talking about the, some of the silly Tabloid stories -they've done like Kenneth Williams.. JB - ..standing on the cockpit or whatever. But they is suddenly something up there. Something shows on the Radar. And is available later, because it's all recorded in the Black-Box or the yellow helmet or whatever it is. Then you begin to think. I mean, I like you have a very open-mind. I just think that, as Donna just said, the Universe is so enormous. There could well be something up there. SC - I have seen a UFO. BUt I will talk about that in just a moment. SC - Pauls in Liverpool. Paul Morning, you're on Talk Radio UK. P - Good-Morning. SC - Hello. P - Yes. My story, is, I was with my son visiting a relative on the New Years Eve. Well over 10yrs ago. And I'm not one who actually believes in flying saucers. But, we/I left the car at home, and I was getting a bus, late bus, back to Liverpool. JB - Having a drink were you Jock, at all? P - No. JB - Oh, sorry. P - No. No. No. No, didn't have a drink. JB - Right. P - (AHHA) JB - No, because that effects you seeing things. P - No. No. I can assure you, we didn't have a drink. We/I was expecting the bus to go into Liverpool, but unfortunately it only went half way on the East Lancashire Rd, by a famous factory. The bus driver informed us that across the road on housing estate, we should connect the bus there, which would be the last one going into Liverpool. I'm standing at the bus-stop with my son -there was a couple of elderly people, a couple of young people- and I was talking to a particular chap. Just talking about where he was going for the night. We had our backs facing the city, looking towards Manchester. And right in front of us, about 500yards away, was a block of flats. Now, all of a sudden -we were all looking around us- we could hear this terrible droning sound. Like heavy engines, but it was a real heavy droning sound. And as we looked up, in the field of view, which apparently looked the height off the block of flats -which was about 14 floors. Partly sticking out one side was about 70' long, and we could see the tail end of it, the other end of the flats. Now there's only one single block. Now it was octagon-shaped, cigar, octagon-roun.. you know, shape.. JB - Octagonal. P - Yeah. JB - Right. P - Just say, rough estimate, was about over 200' long. It had no lights. No engines, no thoughts of, you know, the way it could travel. It had no wings, no hanging basket. We thought before it could have been a baalloon or something. The first thing that come to mind was frightening, 'cause we thought it was like one of these Ballistic Missiles you see on the May Day Parade in Russia. And it seemed to creep up to a slow speed to where we first observed it. And all of a sudden it picked up speed and with/in a flash it was gone out of sight completely. That was it basically. Now I looked in the papers, I listened to the news. Nothing was said. But two weeks after, people started coming forward. And apparently it was spotted from Preston and Magaul -which is the flight path which we used to see cutting across the East Lanchasire Rd. It was seen in Warrington and then the last time it was seen was Newcastle-Under-Lyne [hey?]. JB - Well, when it speeded up, did the droning noise sort of speed up. You know how an engine sort of goes. P - No. No. JB - (BRRRUMMM) P - It went off silent. (ATTEMPTS high-short whoosh noise). It just went like a flash. But.. JB - Umm. P - ..it was so vivid. I'm talking about looking at an object about 100yards away. It was so massive. It was too..you know. It had no si..what was so frightening about it was it had no wings, it had..it was dark colour. Like a blacky-greeny colour. PW - Was there.. P - You know that would be just like probably the shading off the night. It was about 8pm, 8.30pm at night. PW - Yeah. I mean, I don't know of this particular case, and I haven't heard any reports on it. But I mean, I'm sure BUFORA would be interested in this. I can't really relate to that one. But I can relate to one that was brought to our attention at the conference by two of the Russian delegates that were flown over. And one of those was -try and pronounce it right- the Petrovska Phenomena. Which was a Russian town. They had reports of like a huge jelly-fish shape which came over the town. Hundreds of people saw it and they traced most of the witnesses. They all had drawings which were very similar. And it was a huge shape which they all said was, they gave distances and everything. What bappened was the Soviets became very interested. They got some of their scientists to look into it. And Sergy was one of those that researched it. They happened to be using some cameras to study the Aurora Borrealus and Aurora Australas [forgive spelling] in a joint effort throughout the world, called the `All-Sky Cameras'. And they checked on those because they literally look the whole of the sky. And because they had the times, they thought well lets see what was up there. Was there anything we saw? And in fact there did. They saw the jelly-fish. But they didn't see it where the people of the town had seen it. It was hundreds of kilometres further away. And when they actually did some work on this, what they found that it was dark over the town, but a rocket, a Soviet Kosmos -and you could even give the numbers and everything of the flight-path- had been launched, and it was dust and particles of the rocket that had kind of exploded over a large area. It was huge the area that it was covering. And the perspective when you look down, it made it look like it was over the town. Now, you know, it's a massive distance away compared wth what the people were reporting, because it's very difficult to judge size and scale unless you've got a physical object to judge it against. Same with the moon. I mean, if you look at the moon and you try to work out how big it would be if you were to draw it on the ground and then you hold a 1p or 2p up and try to cover it, you see the real size that you're looking at. We're very easily fooled by things like that. And this case wasgreat. They went into all the details. Showed all the footage and the.. What happens is the rockets are so high up, the sun can still shine on the particles from them, even though it's darkness below. So you have this beautiful lighting effect. And there's been another instance of that. And in fact they then showed a whole colection of slides of lovely famous UFO cases above Russia, which were exactly this, rocket trails. SC - Oh, what a kill-joy you are. (LAUGH) SC - What a kill-joy. JB - God, don't you hate scientists. SC - Yeah. UFO's that's the debate this hour. JB - It was only a reflection gov. SC - Ohhhh. SC - In a moment we're going to be talking to somebody who thinks that she might have experienced an abduction. And a bit of medical research, as Jeremy related a little earlier.[Part III]
Let the Abductees Come Forth...SC - Rachael Bilman is..Well you tell us your story Rachael. RB - I was 24 when I woke up with a hole in my naval. And I was married to an American service-man at the time. And I went to the hospital, because when I woke up there was stuff ozing out of my naval, and all my organs, when you pressed them, felt like rock. Well I went up to the doctors and they said to me that they thought I had had some sort of surgical operation. And I insisted to them at that time the only operation that I had had was a tonsilectomy, and had my adonoids removed. But they still insisted that I had had some sort of operation. Then, but the incident I had when I was 12 was one that set me on my journey, basically to find out what had happened to me, because.. SC - Sorry Rachael. How old were you when this happened. You were 24? RB - About 24. Yeah. SC - Right. Now you're 12. RB - Well that was..the one at 12 was the incident that set me on my journey to find out what happened. Because at 24 I never even suspected that that itself was an abduction. I just knew something unusual had happened because the doctors kept insisting that I had some sort of operation. But it never occured to me that I could have been an abductee. SC - Right. RB - But I had had an incident at 12, where I had about 3hrs missing. And that I was conciously aware of seeing something in the sky and conciously aware of missing time. But you know, from the time I left my friends house to the time I got home, there was like I say about three hours. Because I left my friends house at about 6.25pm and I was in close to 10pm. The news had just finished and it was still on when I got in, which totally confused me. But to my way of thinking no time had elapsed at all. As far as I was concerned, I wasn't late, I thought it was still half six. It didn't seem like there was any time missing whatsoever. But it wasn't 'till my dad -like fathers do when they tell the children to be home by a certain time- he thought I'd gone off to a friends house. I said, no I hadn't. And it's completely confused me, because I've been brought up to tell the truth. And that night just totally and utterly confused me. I didn't know what was going on. I knew what I had seen. I knew what time I'd left my friends. And I knew it was not a three hour walk from my friends house to my parents' house. It was only a matter of a couple of minutes. JB - Rachael. Were you, were you frightened at that point? When you were 12. RB - When I first saw the objects, yes I was terrified, because I didn't..I have been brought up -because my dad was in the American military- he had brought me up basically not to believe in such things. That such things were nonsense. And no-one really totally prepared me for what I had seen that night, because it was beyond words. I never, I haven't really, the thing that I saw that night itself I haven't seen since. It was totally, I don't reaaly know how to..It was indescribable. JB - OK. The other thing, the puncture in your naval. RB - Yes, that occured was later. JB - Was that painful? That was when you were 24. RB - Yes. That was painful, because what happened as I had woke up and I had noticed this hole in my naval because it had some ooze draining out of it and it was like crusted with blood behind it. And my organs like they were all hard and you know, like when I touched them it felt like they were rocks. And it hurt. JB - Your internal. Yeah Yeah. RB - Yeah. But ended up happening, because like I said the doctors kept on insisting I had some sort of operation. I kept on insisting I hadn't. When it finished, they ended up treating me for an infection. 'Cause that's basically all. They just gave me some antibiotics. But I know they were talking amongst themselves about it. But I remember telling them that I had not had an operation. JB - Sure. Yes I know. The lady that I tested. That I met with the puncture. The initial reaction of the doctors was that she had been sexually molested by a man. And she was able to show quite categorically that.. RB - They didn't explore me that far JB - ..well she was able to prove that she had been locked into her home, her.. RB - (UMMU). JB - ..her partner was away. She was locked into the home. There was no sign of any forceful entry or anything else. She was just in this state the next morning. RB - Yeah, that's basically the way with me. I just woke up. You know, the night before I was alright. Next morning I woke up I had this infection and stuff coming out of my naval and not knowing where it came from. It just totally baffled me. I was totally.. JB - What's.. RB - ..puzzled by it. SC - *What's* the story Rachael? RB - Well. What the story behind.. SC - No. No.no. What do you think? RB - Well from having the hypnotic regression, I now know that it was an abduction experience. But at that time I wasn't aware that it was an abduction experience. I remember the night before, seeing a bright light outside the bedroom window. Thinking it was the moon or a light. But not being able to see the source of the light. 'Cause I remember it was really bright and it was really white. And it seemed to light up all the area out the back. PW - Rachael. Where did you have the, who did the hypnotic regreession? Was that done on England or America? RB - Yes. That was done here in England. PW - Right. RB - 'Cause I'm British. I did live in America for a time. That's where the abductions took place. PW - Right. I mean, we've just. We've just reinstated our 5yr ban again on using hypnosis. The reason for that is, we tend to find some..we've actually done some tests with people who've been willing subjects and fed them stories. RB - (UMMU). PW - Then regressed them through hypnosis and watched how the stories evolve. And compared the story, the truth as we know it -because we wrote it down and told them it- with what we get out at the end. And they don't bear an awful lot of resemblance.. RB - (UM) PW - ..the actual original story, with what is then brought out in the hypnotic regression. And what we tend to find is that people bring a lot from their subconcious through as well. Things that they've seen on telly, things that they've experienced in other situations. So the thing is you're saying that *before* the hypnotic regression you didn't think that you'd been abducted and after you do. RB - No. I knew I saw something at 12. PW - Right. RB - Something not man-made. SC - And you lost time. RB - And I lost three hours time. JB -[Part IV]
. RB - That I can say, hand on heart..I mean..it's..'cause I carried that trauma with me for 17yrs. SC - Well, that's precisely what I was going to ask you Rachael. Are you still suffering from trauma? RB - Well it's not so much the trauma of the experience itself. It's the trauma of having to fight to be believed in. Because people look at me as if I've sort of jumped off a cliff somewhere, you know. JB - Oh no. That's a very common..All the people that I have tested, have all had one thing in common. That they didn't want to say what they, what had really happened, because they felt that people would laugh at them. PW - No. I would.. RB - You do get laughed at. People look at you with this sort of.. JB - Say your an alien. SC - Look of bemusement. RB - ..scorn. Yeah, that's it basically. That what I've experienced is nothing but a mere practical joke. That I'm sort of either made it all up, or that you know..honestly I have..I'm a Christian, I have things I prefer to do with my time rather than make up bizarre stories. PW - No. I don't think, I think people would, who investigate this sort of thing, would say that you definately haven't made something up. You've experienced something. It's the interpretation of what the experience is. To try and find the facts behind it. Now it could be exactly what you say. It might be that, if you're involved in a car crash or something like that, your experience of what you felt happened, and what actually happened, sometimes differs as well. Because the trauma itself can make you remember certain things and not others. Now I know in BUFORA we actually have a witness support group, where witnesses can get together. Witnesses that have seen and experienced abduction. And they can talk and be amongst people who have witnessed these things as well. In America there's a lot more cases of this. You're almost felt to be odd if you haven't had an experience. So it's different in this country. But I mean, if you are interested, you can get in touch with BUFORA. I'm sure we can put you in touch with a witness support group. SC - Rachael, thank you. We've got a lot of calls to get through. And we'll give out a number. Have you got a contact number Phillip we can give out later? PW - Yes, if you want to have time to. SC - Yeah well we'll give that out at the end of the programme.
The phones are starting to liquidify...C#3 SC - Lets go to Devon and speak to Adam. You're on Talk Radio UK Adam. A - Morning Scott. SC - Hi. A - Phillip and Jeremy.[Part V]
A - Hi. I was at the BUFORA conference at the weekend. And obviously was priviledged to see the Roswell footage. SC - Right, lets just remind people. This film supposedly shot in 1947 after the crash of a strange craft near an Air-Force Base called Roswell. A - That's right. In fact I believe that -according to different reports- that there may even have been a mid-air collision between two craft. And that the artefacts were spread across quite a wide scale. Is that correct Phillip? PW - No. Well. A - Depending on the viewpoint of course. PW - Yeah. We had at the conference another person coming up saying that there were actually two crashes. One at White Sands or near White Sands, and one at Roswell; and were saying that the film footage was actually from the White Sands. There were two cases within four months of each other of crash retrievals, or crashes of alien craft, reported in the area. And they seem to be getting confused over years. And more and more stories seem to be coming out. I must say that according to the information I've got, the original crash at Roswell *didn't* have aliens. There was a craft that came down and scattered material. The aliens seemed to come out later. And as the storys' gone on and its developed, more and more information has come to light, the story' expanded. And now we have a second crash near White Sands. The confusion between the two. It's very difficult now to get back to the truth. Definately something happened at Roswell. We know that something happened. The military say that something happemed at Roswell. What it is, it's so difficult to tell. A - Sure. As far as I'm concerned I think that whether the crash happened or didn't happen is academic. It's almost a matter of, it happened. There is so much written evidence and so many testimonials. PW - The military themselves admit that something happened. I mean, we've had stories of weather balloons. We've had stories of foreign craft coming down and the area being sealed for that. A - There's also of course the family testimony of the soldier stationed at the base, who spent his later years in Britain. Who recalled the story to his family and took it to his death- bed. And they relate that he actually saw an alien in the back of one of the trucks that he was guarding. And the description of the alien -or the entity I should say- the body, was very similar to the film footage that we saw. PW - There were differences. The original witnesses seem to be saying four to five fingers and toes. The film footage definately was six digits. A - Six. That's right. PW - So you've got a discrepancy there. JB - Oh what's a finger between friends? SC - Well Adam. A - Scott, sure. SC - I'll tell you whose on the line. It's Ray Santilli. And Ray owns the rights to that film from Roswell. A - Right. SC - So lets talk to Ray. SC - Ray can you tell us, just breifly, how you managed to get your hands on the film? RS - Yeah. Hi firstly. I was working in America about three years ago on a music documentary. And I came across a cameraman that in the mid-50's was working for Universal News as a free-lance. And we bought some footage from him for the music documentary. And he seemed like a regular guy. And we built up a good relationship. And towards the end of that he said "Oh by the way, would you be interested?" and started talking about, you know, prior to '52 when he was working for the army air-force. And he explained that he was a cameraman and that in '47 he was sent down to what was an aviation crash site. SC - Now I've seen some shocling things written about you Ray. RS - Yeah. Yaeh. I've seen them as well. SC - Ranging from all sorts of things from a spive to you know a con-man and all the rest. You don't sound that way to me, I have to say. RS - Well, thank you very much. But you see the problem is that it's very, very hard to knock the footage, because the footage is whar it is. You know, and as we talk here today there isn't a shred of evidence to say that the film is a hoax. In fact quite the opposite. The evidence is building to say that the film is real. So if you want to knock the footage, the only way you can knock the footage is really by looking at maybe myself and my company. SC - Right. RS - And you know, I accept that people have to do that. SC - Now what about Ray. what about..I also read at one stage there were figures burnt into the film and another version the figures weren't.. RS - No. All nonsense. You're talking about the Sunday Times article. SC - Yes. RS - What had happened was that before the broadcasters were involved in the film, we were at the time going to produced our own documentary on the subject. And we had logged each of the reels ourselves, in much the same way as you would a time-code. Because what we'd done was, there's information on the cannisters which we felt maybe was relevant and we has superimposed that over certain sections of the film. SC - Right. RS - But all it is is logging information. SC - And lets just remind people. The film shows what? RS - It's the..The viewable footage is a full autopsy and there's debris footage as well. And then from there on the quality deteriorates. SC - Just a second Ray, we're going to call Jazz in London. C#4 SC - Jazz, Good morning. You're on Talk Radio UK. J - Good Morning. SC - Hi. J - Hi. SC - What's your story Jazz? J - I had an encounter when I was about 14yrs old. I was visiting an Old Peoples Home at the time, doing some community work with a friend. SC - Jazz. Can we talk about that in just a moment? Lets talk about your knowledge of Roswell first. J - Yes certainly. My background, as a result of the encounter that I mentionied, is that I went to study astro-physics at University, with a number of other disciplines. And the Roswell incident and the various bits of information that have come out of it, suggest that the metals that were recovered from the crash site -supposedly linked in with the space-craft technology itself- were metals that were also being investigated by the US government just after the second world war, when they were trying to produce technologies to make ships invisable to Radar. SC - Right. So you believe what? J - There's two possibilities. One, that the technology that people were talking about was already being developed by the US government. And two, that the technologies were further developed after the crash in 1947. JB - So do you feel that it was an experimental USAF aircraft that crashed rather than an alien. And the hush-up was for security purposes? J - Both actually I think. They were originally working on that particular material, and then by chance they happened to come across a lovely little UFO crash, which enabled them to actually develop that technology further. And I think, personally, from my studies in aeronautics and astronautics, that they've actually been using it to develop stealth technologies, which I know personally have been available since the 1970's, although they just recently.. JB - But you do believe that the Roswell crash was an extra-terrestrial vehicle of some kind. J - There's been too many witnesses. And my own research suggests that that is definately the case. JB - SC - So. Right. Now, so you think that Ray Santilli's film could very well be genuine? J - Now this is questionable. Because I'm familiar with the film itself. I've downloaded pictures off the I-Net that show the aliens. And some of the deformities, I think, which are associated with the hands -and the hands from classical anatomical pictures suggest that they are in fact deformities of an ordinary human being. Whereas, the aliens which are pictured within the film, for me they could be either someone who has been genetically mutated, or either through some kind of radiation treatment or perhaps through a birth defect. If they are indeed aliens, then I think that the images that have actually been taken, should be taken seriously. Because they do seem to resemble many features which are associated with aliens which are linked up to that particular incident. SC - Right. Now you're an astro-physicist? J - Ya. SC - And you got into that game because at 12 what happened? J - I was with a friend I said. I went to a community centre to help out old age people. And while we were down there, waiting outside the wardens house, an X-shaped object flew overhead. It was about 50-69' just above the tree-line and going very slowly, I dunno, about 5-6m/h. Absolutely silent. Not a sound coming out of it. And we went home to his home afterwards, my friends home, and we sat down. We were wondering what the hell it was that we saw. I spent the next week drawing pictures of it. Trying to understand what it could possibly be. And it encouraged me basically, to get involved in astronautics and aeronautical design. And looking into the possibilites of what it could be. But to this very day, all the planes I've seen. All the aeronautical material I've seen, that you know, the variuos governments around the world have produced, suggests that whatever I saw, it wasn't of this Earth. SC - So. You've not just got an open mind as a scientist. You actually tend towards the belief that we are being visited. J - I think there's plenty of belief in that for me. Because lately, one of the things I've been involved in is looking into propolsion technologies for various kinds of space-craft. And these technologies basically use shifts in gravitational fields to enable a craft to litterally open up a hole in space and time and travel from one region in space and time to another. I mean, this technology was originally been developed by the US government just after the second world war, in an experiment known as the Philadelphia Experiment. SC - (UM). Thanks for that Jazz. Back to you Ray. RS - Hi. RS - Jazz seems to think that your film might indeed be genuine. I mean, he hasn't you know, here we have an astro-physicist who hasn't written it off. RS - Well I mean firstly I..it is a difficult subject. And you know, we're waiting until the 28th of this month before we know the determination by the various broadcasters. But as far as the cameraman is concerned, he can't tell you were the creatures came from. He can't tell you were the vehicle came from. When he was sent down there, he was told it was a Russian spy plane that had crashed. When they all got there, they obviously knew that it wasn't. But what the creature is, is a mystery to everyone at the moment. PW - Ray, it's Phill here. I've seen the film when you showed it to the directors of BUFORA and also at the conference. I just want to say first, that in the actual UFO groups I don't think that anyone is actually having a go at you at all. You come over as a really nice guy. The main argument is some people believe the Roswell incident, some people don't and it's trying to put the film into context with that. That's our main arguments. I must admit I'm sceptical on the whole issue of the film being genuine. Because for the inconsistencies with reports in the past. And I think the first criteria has got to be testing the film obviously, to try and ascertain the age. RS - Yeah. PW - Is the test going to be definately done for the 28th. RS - The tests have already been done. PW - Right. RS - We had a fax this weekend actually from the states, to say that they've given us a 95% probability now that the film is 1947. They've actually determined that the film-stock is something called CineKodax SuperX-X which was discontinued in 1956. And they can determine from the attributes of the film itself that it was shot within two years of manufacture. And it's you know, obviously a very important piece of news for us. And you know, that's unfortunately too late for the C4 programme. But that's what we got in this weekend. PW - 'Cause there were offers from Kodak.. RS - Yeah, we did Kodak at the very beginning, just in terms of the codes. But this new report is from a more detailed examination. We've also given the film to NASA who have been refocasing images. Looking at reflective surface to see what's been going on behind the camera. And from everything that I hear the footage and the film that goes out in America on the 28th is a very, very positive look at the events and the footage. JB - Physically, how much film is there? I mean, is it a huge.. RS - Physically? JB - ..big canister of film, or. RS - Well, yeah. We took 22 reels of film from the cameraman. But we only had.. JB - What was he doing with the film? RS - Well each reel of film is about 3 minutes in duration. And during the event itself he shot hundreds of cannisters of film. What he did was, he seperated problem cannisters -either exposure problems or where the film had jammed or focas problems or whatever. He sent the first batch back to Washington and retained the second batch just to work on in development. And it was a coincidence really, because at that time -or just after that time- the army and the air-force split into two different divisions. The army went one way and the air-force went in a different direction. And he just simply called Washington on a continual basis to say come and pick up this second batch of film, it's part of the first job. And he was being passed around from pillar to post and in the end he just gave up. He gave up hounding them on a weekly basis to pick up the film and he just stuck it in his archive. PW - Ray.. RS - ..and that's how he kept it. PW - ..how much of the rest of the film. Now you say we've got so many minutes that we've managed to see at the conference and that. The rest of the film isn't of good quality. Is there, some of the rest of the film of the autopsies and some of the materials, quality enough to actually see something. I know there's a difference between being able to broadcast it and.. RS - Yeah. You know the problem that we have, is that we get jumped on from a very high height if somebody comes to us and says we're using film that's not authenticated or is a different film-stock or whatever. So in order to play safe, the initial screenings here on the 28th, we've used only what we know to be completely verified and also you know, good viewable quality. After that, the greyer areas of the film materials that we have can then be analysed. PW - Right. So we should be able to see more footage that'sof the poorer quality later. RS - Yeah. And you know, technology changes on an almost weekly basis and there could be the technology available where we can retrieve the image from the negative stock and so forth. SC - Ray, you're sitting on probably the most sensational images ever taken. RS - . I think so. SC - Where's the original pal? RS - The original? We have.. well..the originals..apart from.. SC - I hope it's in a big vault somewhere. RS - Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say. Switzerland, in a safe. And that's about it really. Some went back to the cameraman. And some is still with us. JB - Listen. I believe you Ray. There's no chance of getting a piece of the action is there? RS - There isn't any action at the moment. JB - We can handle the publicity for you Ray pal. I'm in patnership with Scott here. SC - Jeremy, no you're not pal. SC - Ray. It's been a pleasure talking to you. RS - Thanks. SC - Like to talk to you again soon. Ray Santilli, who owns the rights to film supposedly shot in 1947, after a mysterious crash of a strange craft near the Roswell Air-Force base near New MExico. And the b&w footage supposedly shows human in white radiation suits performing an autopsy on aliens.
Straight-jackets at the ready...C#5 [base names are spelt phonetically] SC - Lets go to Harrogate. Tony is there. Tony Good Afternoon. You're on Talk Radio UK. T - Good Afternoon Scott. SC - Hello Tony. T - Hi. And Good Afternoon to your guests. Yes. I was stationed in Cypres in 1966. The base was RAF Episcappi. And I worked at a place called the Near East Operations Centre, which was about a mile away from the main base. In actuality it was just a collection of Nisson huts and what have you. Anyway, I went into work this particular day. It was a sort of bright Summers day. Not a cloud in the sky. And I'd probably only been sat down for about half an hour and I heard everybody rushing outside and a bit of a commotion going on. And I joined them. And everyone was looking up into the sky at this what I can only describe as a very bright sphere. It was very, very high up in the sky. It wasn't a star or anything like that. It was too large for a star. Anyway the Duty Operations Officier, he conntacted the main base -which was Acaterri- which was about 15-20 miles away, and obviously they were concerned. So much so that they scrambled a Lightening fighter aircraft to go and investigate. So this was off and away in about 7 mminutes and we could actually see it from where we were. We saw it shoot up in the sky. And he reached his ceiling height, which I think -and I'm not quite sure of this- was about 90,000'. And by this time, they'd actually patched the RT communications from the aircraft to the control tower, through to us and we were listening on a loudspeaker. And when he got to his ceiling, they said "Well what size". Before they'd said that, he'd said the object looked no nearer to him at that height than when he was on the ground. So they said "What size do you estimate the object to be?" And he said, in his estimation, it was the size of a 300,000 ton ship. Sorry a 3,000 ton ship. So he could do no more, so he came back down. And this object just remained in the same position. And I think they took some kind of fix from the bases, to see if it was moving at all. And everyone was thinking well is it a weather balloon, is it this, is it that. And it remained in the same position for about 4-4.5 hrs. And then it drifted, it didn't make any sudden movements and darting all over the sky; it just drifted away. And the next report we got was from Weillis Air-Force base, which was then in the Americans, and we had bases then in Libya. And I saw the actual signal for that, in that we had our own communications center. And over the next 24hrs, we kept getting reports from various US Air-Force bases, of the same object hovering over them. And the last sighting, was at the US Air-Force base at Rhota in Spain. And then it just disappeared. Nobody has ever been able to come up with any explanation at all for it. PW - Did they manage to get a Radar fix on it at all? T - I've no idea. The only information that we got, was just this phone patch through to us. But we got no feed back. SC - Tony, when was this. Waht year? T - 1966. SC - Well how come you didn't know about this Phill?[End Of Programme]
PW - There's lots of events that come in. JB - No one had a camera, did they Tony? T - No. No. I mean, nobody had a camera at work. I don't know how many people witnessed it over Acaterri. Certainly nobody at the main base at Episcappi seemed to have seen it at all. SC - What do you think Tony? T - I've just got no idea. SC - . T - When people say UFO, to me that's exactly what it is. T - It's an Unidentified Flying Object. Obviously, people were coming up with their own ideas. Obviously, people were mentioning extra- terrestrials and all this sort of thing. PW - It's difficult to get the information, because of the time. You're talking 60's Cold War. They're getting a lot more helpful now. The Russians were saying that hey had difficulty when they were trying to find out the Rocket trajectories for this thing with the rocket dust. But they're opening up more and more. And the information is being shared. So in '66 '67, useless to try to get any information from the military, or from the government. SC - You mean our own military. PW - Oh yeah. But nowadays.. SC - Do you think there's a cover-uo? PW - No. Well, cover-up in that some information isn't given out. But it might be for sensible reasons. SC - We don't want to scare the natives. PW - No, no, no. There's a lot of testing of equipment over the Arctic and Antarctic which sometimes strays into air space. And people see it and then ask for, you know, what was that. And when we ask the MOD and that, sometimes they'll tell us whether there was something there or not. Sometimes they just can't say, because it's other peoples equipment. The example is, I think, last year just before April Fools, sorry year before last, an American plane straying into Irish air space. And they announced it pretty soon after it happened. that they'd picked up this UFO etc. But it turned out to be an American plane, but a rather secret one. They didn't really want that information given away. I mean, you can't test secret planes anywhere except for the Arctic and Antarctic in case they zoom over here. So there's reason why they can't say. Certain government, I must admit, in the EEC are much more helpful. And Scandanavian governments seem to cooperate very well with their UFO researchers. Much more open to the information and it solves a lot more problems. C#6 SC - Let's go to Luton. I want to squeeze in Peters call. Peter, Good Afternoon. You're on Talk Radio UK. What's your story Peter? P - Good Afternoon Scott. P - I've had many a UFO sighting since an early age. Since I was about 5yrs old. I'm now 38 and they still continue. I've seen a being. I'm not going to say much more than that. But a being, which didn't resemble any type of humanoid or human being in any way whatsoever. Apart from the fact that it had two hands. That's the only thing. I've also seen a huge -and I mean a huge- object in the sky. Massive. So big it would make a jumbo jet look like a dinky toy. But besides all this there's a couple of other things I would like to talk about. And I understand Ray's gone now. SC - Yes. P - But I had two newspaper cuttings in front of me. One was the Sun newspaper taken on July 28th and the other was the People from July 16th. NOw, these are obviously two different pictures of the same type of being. But on one being the right leg has got an identical injury -if you like- to the other one, who has the identical injury on the left leg. SC - Right. P - Now if it's not something to do with the autopsy, it's a bit suspicious. I must admit. SC - No. I'll tell you what happens regularly in newspapers. They.. PW - I've seeen it as well. SC - ..they switch, they reverse the photograph. PW - But they actually did it at the conference. Put a slide up the wrong way 'round. And everyone went "Ahh..it's on the other leg". And they said "No. Slide's the wrong way around". SC - Yeah. That's true. Having worked on newspapers, that's true. Peter, thanks. SC - I want to talk to, very quickly Dr Ian Morrison, who's a radio astronomer. Ian, Good Afternoon to you. IM - Good Afternoon to oyou. SC - We haven't got very long to talk, Ian. IM - No problem. SC - You took part in SETI. Search For Exra-Terrestrial Intellegence. Can you sum up for us what you've found. IM - Well, so far nothing I'm afraid. And in fact NASA unfortunately, were unable to continue funding of the SETI project themselves. It was hoped to run for around 10yrs, starting about a year and a half ago. But they very kindly let a private institute take over all the very expensive equipment, which includes some fantastic radio receivers. And the project continues. It's now called Project Pheonix. It's using a telescope at Parks[?] Australia. And a telescope in America. So they've now got about a years observation under their belt. But I have to say that so far nothing really exciting has been picked up. SC - But the search goes on. IM - It certainly does. SC - Ian, many thanks. We must talk again soon. Dr Ian Morrison, the radio astronomer. SC - Phill, we've only got 30 seconds. And Jeremy. The search does go on and you have an open mind. PW - Oh yes. We're putting, the conference has been financially very successful for us. And all of that money is going into investigation and research. We're building equipment. We're trying to get positive information. SC - Give us the number Phill. PW- Right we've got a coouple of numbers. You can do me on 0181-313-1556 Central Office: 1 Wood Hall Drive. Batly West Yorkshire WF1 77ro Phill Contact Address: 22 West Street. Bromely. B01 BRF SC - Jeremy. Are the people that have seen it, telling the truth? JB - They are telling the truth.
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