The Great UFO Debate

Talk Radio UK - August 21st, 1995

Thanks to Eileen Mulvihill, for posting on the newgroup the transcription of Scott Chisham's UFO Today show, that was aired shortly after the Bufora Conference in England including Ray Santilli ..... ILLINOIS

From: (Eileen Theresa Mulvihill)
Subject: The Great UFO Debate - Talk Radio UK
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 1995 17:27:59 GMT

Talk Radio UK [f=10.53-10.58a.m.] 21-8-95 on Scott Chisham's `UK Today' slot, gave stage to a rather interesting UFO debate. Amongst the participants were:

SC [Scott Chisholm] : Talk Radio Host.
PW [Philip Walton] : Director of BUFORA.
JB [Jeremy Barrett] : Polygrapgh Expert.
RS [Ray Santilli] : : Hell you know by now!
RB [Rachael Bilman] : Abductee >:)
C#x [Caller Number x..] : Various Members of the UK Public.

NB. This file is in 5 Parts to aid in its digestion.

    Part I   - Intro.
               Hastings Abduction Case.
               Observation Of Witnesses Challanged.
    Part II  - UK Callers - Including:
               General Speculation.
               Octagonal Ship near Manchester.
               Petrovska Phenomena.
    Part III - Abductee, Rachael Bilman speaks.
    Part IV  - Ray Santilli is hooked up to the debate.
               UK Callers - Including:
               Roswell Crash.
               X-shaped UFO.
               The Autopsy Footage Itself.
    Part V   - UK Callers - Including :
               Ex Air-Force Person Relates His Experience.
               The Government Coverup?
               Ian Morrison, radio astronomer.
               BUFORA Contact # & Address.
So lets see what they all had to say...

[ PART I ]

SC :

UFO's is the debate this hour.  The question I'm asking is "How
do we explain the inexplicable?"

The 8th International UFO Conference finished yesterday in Sheffield.
Hence the reason for the debate today.  A galaxy of experts examined
the evidence, and they delivered the results of years of research
into the physical nature of what they call `Anomolous Phenomena'.
-It's easy for you to say .  Matters like UFO's and
creatures of Outer Space.

Those attending the conference were treated to a film-show too.  The
so-called `Roswell Incident' to be precise.  A much hyped film,
supposedly shot in 1947 after the mysterious crash of a strange craft
near the Roswell Air-Force Base in New Mexico.

The b&w footage supposedly shows humans in white radiation suits
preforming an autopsy on aliens.  Some say it's a hoax.  An American 
Congressman thinks there has been a massive Government coverup.

It seems the American Air-Force has now abandoned its claim that the
crash was caused by a high-altitude weather balloon.  A lot of the
documents have been destroyed.  Understandable over a period of 50yrs,
or just convenient?


The possibility of extra-terrestrial life has fascinated us for
centuries.  Think of the money-spinning films.  `E.T',  `Close
Encounter of the Third Kind'.  But are we any closer to the answers?
Well I don't know.  But a couple of gentlemen are in the studio with
us, and they might well do.

Jeremy Barrett's here with us, the lie-detector expert.

SC - Good to see you Jeremy.
JB - Hi there.

Phillip Walton is Director of the British Unidentified Flying Objects
Research Association.

SC - (STRUGGLES with name)

And a member of the Association for Scientific-Studies of Anomolous

SC - Phillip Good-Afternoon.
PW - Hello.
SC - Nice to see you.

SC - Ahhm .. You're a bunch of nuts aren't you? 
PW - Thanks.  Not all of us believe in extra-terrestrials actually
     coming to this planet.  UFO's are Unidentified Flying Objects.
     90% of all the cases that we get in are actually explained as
     natural phenomena.  It's the core that's left -between 5 and 10-
     which cause the controversy.  And the division is, some believe
     that it's aliens from Outer Space; others believe that it's
     natural phenomena yet to be explained.  I think some of them
     just fall into the category of we haven't got enough information
     and we just don't know.

SC - Now Jeremy, you can tell a lie from a hundred paces.
JB - Only with my little magic instrument.  Yes.
SC - Now you..
JB - And I have actually tested a number of people who have claimed
     that they've been abducted, sexually investigated by aliens
     and extra-terrestrial beings.  Now I tested them -was asked to
     test them- to find out whether they were trying to sort of jump
     on a money-wagon or what.  And there is absolutely no doubt, that
     these people were telling the truth.  *But* if you, truely,
     truely, believe that you were Napoleon Bonapart, and I put you om
     a Polygraph instrument, you would come through as being truthful.
     Now I'm not saying that people that have seen UFO's are nutty.
     But it could be in their minds.

     I mean, I have a very, very open-mind.  I believe that there is
     much more to the Universe than what we can see.  I mean, that
     Roswell film was probably Ronald Regan being prepared for
     Presidency, or something like that .  But, you know,
     there's always explanations. And on Saturday night I watched the
     VJ day fireworks -which were absolutely stunning- and then
     realised there was a UFO up there.  But it was actually a
     helicopter very high up, filming the fireworks.  But you can see
     how things like that happen.

     When aliens take people from their beds.  And return them to their
     beds the next morning, with punctures in the stomach and 50 pence-
     piece sized bits of scalp removed, and obvious internal bruising.
     One does begin to think, hang-on, hang-on, hang-on; this is not
     something that somebody's done to themselves.

     A woman who was on her own in a house near Hastings, was aware
     suddenly of people -and it's amazing how very similiar all their
     descriptions are of the people that they've seen; they're sort of
     nose-less, wide-eyed, slightly almondy-ovally eyes and greyish or
     metallicish or whatever.  And she was aware of these people around
     the bed.  She was then aware of looking down on her own house.
     And she was taken into something that felt metallic.  She was laid
     on a table -or a bench of somekind which felt metallic- but she
     couldn't, it was no substance that she wasn't  formicra,
     it wasn't metal, it wasn't tin.  You know, she didn't know what it
     was, but it looked metallic.  Her clothes were removed.  She had
     no sense of embarrassment or fear, at that point.  Nobody spoke to
     her -by vocal means.  But they were communicating with her through
     her head. They were actually putting thoughts into her mind, and
     she was answering questions which they were asking her.  They did
     various things to her.  They inserted something into her stomach,
     just by her naval.  And she was somehow able to know what they
     were doing.  They were investigating her insides.  She didn't like
     it, but she wasn't petrefied.  She felt..the only pain she felt was
     a sharp pain at the back of her head at one point.

     She woke up in bed the next morning.  Became back in her own bed
     the next morning, covered in blood.  I mean, she looked as though
     she'd been severly beaten up.  She got herself to hospital.  They
     found a hole in her naval -just below her naval- equivalent to you
     taking that ball-point pen that you have, and pushing it into a
     body.  Internal examination by the doctors and so forth, showed
     that there was severe bruising around the mouth of the womb and so
     on and so forth.  And on the back of her head there was this bald-
     patch, where the roots, the hair, and everything had been removed.
     And a little circle, about 50p wide.  Now all this is confirmed
     by the doctor.  She had the medical report of that examination.
     Now if you could grab hold of my hair -which would be a bit of a
     problem on account of the..your listeners don't know I have long
     flowing locks, described as slightly bald.  But if you could pull
     my hair, you might pull out a couple of roots, you might pull off
     some hair, you might snap some hair.  But the chances of cleanly
     removing every single root in a 50p sized piece of skin.  Pretty

     There's something there.  There is something there.

SC - And this person from Hastings was telling you the truth when she
     was relating the story.
JB - Absolutely.  Absolutely.
SC - You were nodding your head .

PW - Well I've heard of cases very similar.  Yes.  There are many cases
     that.  You know, these are the classic conditions that are given.
JB - But you're not going to lie in bed and stab yourself in the stomach
     with a ball-point pen and shave your head ..
PW - Oh no.
JB - ..and then shout "Alien, alien" are you?
PW - No.  But you have to try and pull back and look at other cases that
     have been looked at.  We do a lot with the Anomolous Phenomena,
     where we/I've actually seen and recorded some pretty amazing things.
     And I've actually been with people at the time when they've seen
     some amazing things.  And it's, it's very difficult to pigeon-hole.
     If you come across..
JB - Sorry.  You've been with them when *they* have seen them.  Is that
     meaning that you didn't see them?
PW - Oh no I've seen some..
JB - Oh Right.
PW - ..some strange things.  But..
SC - I have to.  I want to come to that in a moment.
PW - Oh yes, well we really want to listen to that as well .
     But yeah.  Some of these things, it depends on.  I've got quite
     an open-mind.  And some of the things that have happened -I just
     take them at face value- I have no explanation for.  And we try and
     study to find out what's going on, using electronic equipment etc.
     Some people have to put them into a pigeon-hole.  They have to have
     a reason.  And it can be Alien Abduction, it can be seeing a ghost,
     it can be anything.  It gets labelled.
JB - (UMM).
PW - Humans hate having something floating around unexplained.  So we
     have to give an explanation.  Now -I mean, I don't know the back
     ground history to that particular case- and it really does take
     a lot of detailed investigation to try and get any further, but I
     would say with all these cases a phenomena happens.  We don't
     disbelieve that something happened to them.  But everybody puts
     their own interpretation.  I can give you a very simple example
     of how good witnesses are.

     We used to run some evening classes -when we got the time- on
     Paranormal Studies.  And one evening was devoted to observation.
     And we'd actually have a camera-man -a collegue of mine- who
     would wander around for the first evening.  The second evening,
     he'd actually come up and start taking some pictures.  And
     change the film in front of me.  One time we actually went the
     full length and had a good two minute heated debate, and he
     stormed out of the room.  The whole class were looking at us
     horrified.  And I said, "Right, it was all stage-managed, describe
     him.  You got a pen and paper in front of you".  Oh right.  And
     they wrote down a description.  And his height ranged from about
SC - Sure.
PW - ..beard-no beard, balding-not balding, smart trainers-shoes,
     jeans, the lot.  I actually described him as Simon the Camera-man,
     and only one person out of thiry remembered he had a camera
     around his neck and was holding a camera.
PW - I asked them to draw a line underneath and then descrbe the badge
     he was wearing and the case he was holding.  Half couldn't
     remember it.  But the other half gave very vivid descriptions.
     Most of them differed.  Some were very similar.  Now that was
     quite interesting, because he wasn't wearing a badge and he didn't
     have a case.
PW - So you know.  If you ask someone for a description of something
     and they haven't seen it, they will still give you a description..
JB - Oh..
PW - ..because they feel they have to.
JB - You ask any police-man -the poor souls- I mean, they ask for a
     description, and they ask over, and over, and over again.
     Because they actually have to, without putting what they want the
     person to have seen, into their minds.  People, really do not
PW - No.
JB - *But* I do feel that if something suddenly catches your eye.
     Something as extraordinary as a flying saucer, or whatever, I do
     feel that you sort of notice it.
SC -  :)
JB - People who've never noticed one, have  never seen one.

SC - In a moment I'm going to be talking to someone who has, believes
     she's gone through an experience similar to the one that you
     related Jeremy..
JB - Umhum.
SC - .. to the woman in Hastings.

SC - First of all lets just hit the phones before we go to a break.
[Part II]


SC - Donna's in London.  Donna, Good-Morning, you're on Talk Radio UK.
D  - Hello.
SC - Hi.
D  - Hi.  I do believe there are aliens.  I don't really see how anyone
     can't believe they are. The Universe is so vast.  There are that
     many stars. I mean, we can see the stars, but we can't see the
     planets around them, let alone see if there's life on them planets.
SC - There are a billion*billion other galaxies out there.
PW - Yeah.  Well I mean, I don't think anyone would disagree that there
     could be other life-forms in other planets,  I think, I mean, NASA's
     been doing searches for years.  A lot of money has been put into
     trying to contact.  We even put little epitaphs and little drawings
     on the side of our space-ships, in case they happen to bump into
     someone.  So you know, a lot of money is spent assuming that there
     might be life out there.  And I don't think anyone would disagree
     with it.  In a research organisation, you know, trying to get
     evidence that they've actually come to Earth, you're trying to
     uncover evidence that they do keep coming all the way here and then
     crashing in the last 20'.  I mean there's so many crash-retrieval
     stories.  There's very little actual physical evidence that ever
     comes to light.
JB - Careless aliens.
PW - "Careless aliens?"  Yes.  They seem to get all the way here, then
     celebrate too quickly.  So..
JB - But I mean, when you hear highly trained jey fighter pilots,
     describing..I mean there you are xthousand feet up, you're on your
     own and you're travelling at quite a substantial speed, and you are
     pretty aware of the fact that you are probably the only person up
     there, apart from maybe a Concorde or whatever.  But because you
     keep away from those routes and so forth.  When you suddenly find
     somebody with you.  And I'm not talking about the, some of the
     silly Tabloid stories -they've done like Kenneth Williams..

JB - ..standing on the cockpit or whatever.  But they is suddenly
     something up there.  Something shows on the Radar.  And is
     available later, because it's all recorded in the Black-Box or the
     yellow helmet or whatever it is.  Then you begin to think.  I mean,
     I like you have a very open-mind.  I just think that, as Donna just
     said, the Universe is so enormous. There could well be something up

SC - I have seen a UFO.  BUt I will talk about that in just a moment.

SC - Pauls in Liverpool.  Paul Morning, you're on Talk Radio UK.
P  - Good-Morning.
SC - Hello.
P  - Yes.  My story, is, I was with my son visiting a relative on the
     New Years Eve.  Well over 10yrs ago.  And I'm not one who actually
     believes in flying saucers. But, we/I left the car at home, and I
     was getting a bus, late bus, back to Liverpool.
JB - Having a drink were you Jock, at all?

P  - No.
JB - Oh, sorry.
P  - No. No. No. No, didn't have a drink.
JB - Right.
P  - (AHHA)
JB - No, because that effects you seeing things.
P  - No. No.  I can assure you, we didn't have a drink.  We/I was
     expecting the bus to go into Liverpool, but unfortunately it
     only went half way on the East Lancashire Rd, by a famous
     factory.  The bus driver informed
     us that across the road on housing estate, we should connect
     the bus there, which would be the last one going into Liverpool.
     I'm standing at the bus-stop with my son -there was a couple of
     elderly people, a couple of young people- and I was talking to
     a particular chap.  Just talking about where he was going for
     the night.  We had our backs facing the city, looking towards
     Manchester.  And right in front of us, about 500yards away, was
     a block of flats.  Now, all of a sudden -we were all looking
     around us- we could hear this terrible droning sound.  Like
     heavy engines, but it was a real heavy droning sound.  And as we
     looked up, in the field of view, which apparently looked the
     height off the block of flats -which was about 14 floors.  Partly
     sticking out one side was about 70' long, and we could see the
     tail end of it, the other end of the flats.  Now there's only one
     single block.  Now it was octagon-shaped, cigar, octagon-roun..
     you know, shape..
JB - Octagonal.
P  - Yeah.
JB - Right.
P  - Just say, rough estimate, was about over 200' long.  It had no
     lights.  No engines, no thoughts of, you know, the way it could
     travel.  It had no wings, no hanging basket.  We thought before
     it could have been a baalloon or something.  The first thing that
     come to mind was frightening, 'cause we thought it was like one
     of these Ballistic Missiles you see on the May Day Parade in Russia.
     And it seemed to creep up to a slow speed to where we first
     observed it.  And all of a sudden it picked up speed and with/in
     a flash it was gone out of sight completely.  That was it basically.
     Now I looked in the papers, I listened to the news.  Nothing was
     said.  But two weeks after, people started coming forward.  And
     apparently it was spotted from Preston and Magaul -which is the
     flight path which we used to see cutting across the East Lanchasire
     Rd.  It was seen in Warrington and then the last time it was seen
     was Newcastle-Under-Lyne [hey?].
JB - Well, when it speeded up, did the droning noise sort of speed up.
     You know how an engine sort of goes.
P  - No. No.
P  - It went off silent. (ATTEMPTS high-short whoosh noise).  It just
     went like a flash.  But..
JB - Umm. 
P  - was so vivid.  I'm talking about looking at an object about
     100yards away.  It was so massive.  It was know.  It had
     no si..what was so frightening about it was it had no wings, it was dark colour.  Like a blacky-greeny colour.
PW - Was there..
P  - You know that would be just like probably the shading off the night.
     It was about 8pm, 8.30pm at night.

PW - Yeah.  I mean, I don't know of this particular case, and I haven't
     heard any reports on it.  But I mean, I'm sure BUFORA would be
     interested in this.  I can't really relate to that one.  But I can
     relate to one that was brought to our attention at the conference
     by two of the Russian delegates that were flown over.  And one of
     those was -try and pronounce it right- the Petrovska Phenomena.
     Which was a Russian town.  They had reports of like a huge
     jelly-fish shape which came over the town.  Hundreds of people saw
     it and they traced most of the witnesses.  They all had drawings
     which were very similar.  And it was a huge shape which they all
     said was, they gave distances and everything.
     What bappened was the Soviets became very interested.  They got
     some of their scientists to look into it.  And Sergy was one of
     those that researched it.  They happened to be using some cameras
     to study the Aurora Borrealus and Aurora Australas [forgive
     spelling] in a joint effort throughout the world, called the
     `All-Sky Cameras'.  And they checked on those because they
     literally look the whole of the sky.  And because they had the
     times, they thought well lets see what was up there.  Was there
     anything we saw?  And in fact there did.  They saw the jelly-fish.
     But they didn't see it where the people of the town had seen it.
     It was hundreds of kilometres further away.  And when they
     actually did some work on this, what they found that it was dark
     over the town, but a rocket, a Soviet Kosmos -and you could even
     give the numbers and everything of the flight-path- had been
     launched, and it was dust and particles of the rocket that had
     kind of exploded over a large area.  It was huge the area that
     it was covering.  And the perspective when you look down, it
     made it look like it was over the town.  Now, you know, it's a
     massive distance away compared wth what the people were
     reporting, because it's very difficult to judge size and scale
     unless you've got a physical object to judge it against.  Same
     with the moon.  I mean, if you look at the moon and you try to
     work out how big it would be if you were to draw it on the ground
     and then you hold a 1p or 2p up and try to cover it, you see the
     real size that you're looking at.  We're very easily fooled by
     things like that.  And this case wasgreat.  They went into all
     the details.  Showed all the footage and the..  What happens is
     the rockets are so high up, the sun can still shine on the
     particles from them, even though it's darkness below.  So you
     have this beautiful lighting effect.  And there's been another
     instance of that.  And in fact they then showed a whole colection
     of slides of lovely famous UFO cases above Russia, which were
     exactly this, rocket trails.
SC - Oh, what a kill-joy you are.
SC - What a kill-joy.
JB - God, don't you hate scientists.
SC - Yeah.  UFO's that's the debate this hour.
JB - It was only a reflection gov.
SC - Ohhhh.

SC - In a moment we're going to be talking to somebody who thinks
     that she might have experienced an abduction.  And a bit of
     medical research, as Jeremy related a little earlier.
[Part III]

Let the Abductees Come Forth...

SC - Rachael Bilman is..Well you tell us your story Rachael.
RB - I was 24 when I woke up with a hole in my naval. And I was
     married to an American service-man at the time.  And I went
     to the hospital, because when I woke up there was stuff
     ozing out of my naval, and all my organs, when you pressed
     them, felt like rock.  Well I went up to the doctors and
     they said to me that they thought I had had some sort of
     surgical operation.  And I insisted to them at that time
     the only operation that I had had was a tonsilectomy, and
     had my adonoids removed.  But they still insisted that I
     had had some sort of operation.  Then, but the incident I
     had when I was 12 was one that set me on my journey,
     basically to find out what had happened to me, because..
SC - Sorry Rachael.  How old were you when this happened.  You were
RB - About 24.  Yeah.
SC - Right.  Now you're 12.
RB - Well that was..the one at 12 was the incident that set me on
     my journey to find out what happened.  Because at 24 I never
     even suspected that that itself was an abduction.  I just
     knew something unusual had happened because the doctors kept
     insisting that I had some sort of operation.  But it never
     occured to me that I could have been an abductee.
SC - Right.
RB - But I had had an incident at 12, where I had about 3hrs
     missing.  And that I was conciously aware of seeing something
     in the sky and conciously aware of missing time.  But you
     know, from the time I left my friends house to the time I
     got home, there was like I say about three hours.  Because
     I left my friends house at about 6.25pm and I was in close to
     10pm.  The news had just finished and it was still on when I
     got in, which totally confused me.  But to my way of thinking
     no time had elapsed at all.  As far as I was concerned, I
     wasn't late, I thought it was still half six.  It didn't seem
     like there was any time missing whatsoever.  But it wasn't
     'till my dad -like fathers do when they tell the children to
     be home by a certain time- he thought I'd gone off to a
     friends house.  I said, no I hadn't.  And it's completely
     confused me, because I've been brought up to tell the truth.
     And that night just totally and utterly confused me.  I
     didn't know what was going on.  I knew what I had seen.  I
     knew what time I'd left my friends.  And I knew it was not a
     three hour walk from my friends house to my parents' house.
     It was only a matter of a couple of minutes.
JB - Rachael.  Were you, were you frightened at that point?
     When you were 12.
RB - When I first saw the objects, yes I was terrified, because I
     didn't..I have been brought up -because my dad was in the
     American military- he had brought me up basically not to
     believe in such things.  That such things were nonsense.
     And no-one really totally prepared me for what I had seen
     that night, because it was beyond words.  I never, I haven't
     really, the thing that I saw that night itself I haven't
     seen since.  It was totally, I don't reaaly know how to..It
     was indescribable.
JB - OK.  The other thing, the puncture in your naval.
RB - Yes, that occured was later.
JB - Was that painful?  That was when you were 24.
RB - Yes.  That was painful, because what happened as I had woke
     up and I had noticed this hole in my naval because it had
     some ooze draining out of it and it was like crusted with
     blood behind it.  And my organs like they were all hard and
     you know, like when I touched them it felt like they were
     rocks.  And it hurt.
JB - Your internal.  Yeah Yeah.
RB - Yeah.  But ended up happening, because like I said the
     doctors kept on insisting I had some sort of operation.
     I kept on insisting I hadn't.  When it finished, they ended
     up treating me for an infection.  'Cause that's basically
     all.  They just gave me some antibiotics.  But I know they
     were talking amongst themselves about it.  But I remember
     telling them that I had not had an operation.
JB - Sure.  Yes I know.  The lady that I tested.  That I met with
     the puncture.  The initial reaction of the doctors was that
     she had been sexually molested by a man.  And she was able
     to show quite categorically that..
RB - They didn't explore me that far
JB - ..well she was able to prove that she had been locked into
     her home, her..
RB - (UMMU).
JB - ..her partner was away.  She was locked into the home.
     There was no sign of any forceful entry or anything else.
     She was just in this state the next morning.
RB - Yeah, that's basically the way with me.  I just woke up.
     You know, the night before I was alright.  Next morning
     I woke up I had this infection and stuff coming out of my
     naval and not knowing where it came from.  It just totally
     baffled me.  I was totally..
JB - What's..
RB - ..puzzled by it.
SC - *What's* the story Rachael?
RB - Well.  What the story behind..
SC - No.  What do you think?

RB - Well from having the hypnotic regression, I now know that
     it was an abduction experience.  But at that time I wasn't
     aware that it was an abduction experience.  I remember the
     night before, seeing a bright light outside the bedroom
     window.  Thinking it was the moon or a light.  But not
     being able to see the source of the light.  'Cause I
     remember it was really bright and it was really white.  And
     it seemed to light up all the area out the back.
PW - Rachael.  Where did you have the, who did the hypnotic
     regreession?  Was that done on England or America?
RB - Yes.  That was done here in England.
PW - Right.
RB - 'Cause I'm British.  I did live in America for a time.
     That's where the abductions took place.
PW - Right.  I mean, we've just.  We've just reinstated our 5yr
     ban again on using hypnosis.  The reason for that is, we
     tend to find some..we've actually done some tests with
     people who've been willing subjects and fed them stories.
RB - (UMMU).
PW - Then regressed them through hypnosis and watched how the
     stories evolve.  And  compared the story, the truth as we
     know it -because we wrote it down and told them it- with
     what we get out at the end.  And they don't bear an awful
     lot of resemblance..
RB - (UM)
PW - ..the actual original story, with what is then brought
     out in the hypnotic regression.  And what we tend to find
     is that people bring a lot from their subconcious through
     as well. Things that they've seen on telly, things that
     they've experienced in other situations.  So the thing is
     you're saying that *before* the hypnotic regression you
     didn't think that you'd been abducted and after you do.
RB - No.  I knew I saw something at 12.
PW - Right.
RB - Something not man-made.
SC - And you lost time.
RB - And I lost three hours time.
JB - .
RB - That I can say, hand on heart..I's..'cause I
     carried that trauma with me for 17yrs.
SC - Well, that's precisely what I was going to ask you Rachael.
     Are you still suffering from trauma? 
RB - Well it's not so much the trauma of the experience itself.
     It's the trauma of having to fight to be believed in.
     Because people look at me as if I've sort of jumped off a
     cliff somewhere, you know.
JB - Oh no.  That's a very common..All the people that I have
     tested, have all had one thing in common.  That they didn't
     want to say what they, what had really happened, because
     they felt that people would laugh at them.
PW - No. I would..
RB - You do get laughed at.  People look at you with this sort of..
JB - Say your an alien.
SC - Look of bemusement.
RB - ..scorn.  Yeah, that's it basically.  That what I've
     experienced is nothing but a mere practical joke.  That I'm
     sort of either made it all up, or that you know..honestly I
     have..I'm a Christian, I have things I prefer to do with my
     time rather than make up bizarre stories.
PW - No.  I don't think, I think people would, who investigate
     this sort of thing, would say that you definately haven't
     made something up.  You've experienced something.  It's the
     interpretation of what the experience is.  To try and find
     the facts behind it.  Now it could be exactly what you say.
     It might be that, if you're involved in a car crash or
     something like that, your experience of what you felt
     happened, and what actually happened, sometimes differs as
     well.  Because the trauma itself can make you remember
     certain things and not others.  Now I know in BUFORA we
     actually have a witness support group, where witnesses can
     get together.  Witnesses that have seen and experienced
     abduction.  And they can talk and be amongst people who
     have witnessed these things as well.  In America there's a
     lot more cases of this.  You're almost felt to be odd if
     you haven't had an experience.  So it's different in this
     country.  But I mean, if you are interested, you can get in
     touch with BUFORA.  I'm sure we can put you in touch with a
     witness support group.

SC - Rachael, thank you.  We've got a lot of calls to get through.
     And we'll give out a number.  Have you got a contact number
     Phillip we can give out later?
PW - Yes, if you want to have time to.    
SC - Yeah well we'll give that out at the end of the programme.
[Part IV]

The phones are starting to liquidify...


SC - Lets go to Devon and speak to Adam.  You're on Talk Radio UK
A  - Morning Scott.
SC - Hi.
A  - Phillip and Jeremy.

A  - Hi.  I was at the BUFORA conference at the weekend.  And
     obviously was priviledged to see the Roswell footage.
SC - Right, lets just remind people.  This film supposedly shot
     in 1947 after the crash of a strange craft near an Air-Force
     Base called Roswell.
A  - That's right.  In fact I believe that -according to different
     reports- that there may even have been a mid-air collision
     between two craft.  And that the artefacts were spread across
     quite a wide scale.  Is that correct Phillip?
PW - No.  Well.
A  - Depending on the viewpoint of course.
PW - Yeah.  We had at the conference another person  coming up
     saying that there were actually two crashes.  One at White
     Sands or near White Sands, and one at Roswell; and were
     saying that the film footage was actually from the White
     Sands.  There were two cases within four months of each other
     of crash retrievals, or crashes of alien craft, reported in
     the area.  And they seem to be getting confused over years.
     And more and more stories seem to be coming out.  I must say
     that according to the information I've got, the original
     crash at Roswell *didn't* have aliens.  There was a craft
     that came down and scattered material.  The aliens seemed to
     come out later.  And as the storys' gone on and its developed,
     more and more information has come to light, the story'
     expanded.  And now we have a second crash near White Sands.
     The confusion between the two.  It's very difficult now to
     get back to the truth.  Definately something happened at
     Roswell.  We know that something happened.  The military say
     that something happemed at Roswell.  What it is, it's so
     difficult to tell.
A  - Sure.  As far as I'm concerned I think that whether the crash
     happened or didn't happen is academic.  It's almost a matter
     of, it happened.  There is so much written evidence and so
     many testimonials.
PW - The military themselves admit that something happened.  I
     mean, we've had stories of weather balloons.  We've had
     stories of foreign craft coming down and the area being
     sealed for that.
A  - There's also of course the family testimony of the soldier
     stationed at the base, who spent his later years in Britain.
     Who recalled the story to his family and took it to his death-
     bed.  And they relate that he actually saw an alien in the
     back of one of the trucks that he was guarding.  And the
     description of the alien -or the entity I should say- the
     body, was very similar to the film footage that we saw.
PW - There were differences.  The original witnesses seem to be
     saying four to five fingers and toes.  The film footage
     definately was six digits.
A  - Six. That's right.
PW - So you've got a discrepancy there.
JB - Oh what's a finger between friends?

SC - Well Adam.
A  - Scott, sure.
SC - I'll tell you whose on the line.  It's Ray Santilli.  And Ray
     owns the rights to that film from Roswell.
A  - Right.
SC - So lets talk to Ray.

SC - Ray can you tell us, just breifly, how you managed to get
     your hands on the film?
RS - Yeah.  Hi firstly.  I was working in America about three years
     ago on a music documentary.  And I came across a cameraman that
     in the mid-50's was working for Universal News as a free-lance.
     And we bought some footage from him for the music documentary.
     And he seemed like a regular guy.  And we built up a good
     relationship.  And towards the end of that he said "Oh by the
     way, would you be interested?" and started talking about, you
     know, prior to '52 when he was working for the army air-force.
     And he explained that he was a cameraman and that in '47 he
     was sent down to what was an aviation crash site.
SC - Now I've seen some shocling things written about you Ray.
RS - Yeah.  Yaeh.  I've seen them as well.
SC - Ranging from all sorts of things from a spive to you know a
     con-man and all the rest.  You don't sound that way to me, I
     have to say.
RS - Well, thank you very much.  But you see the problem is that
     it's very, very hard to knock the footage, because the footage
     is whar it is.  You know, and as we talk here today there
     isn't a shred of evidence to say that the film is a hoax.  In
     fact quite the opposite.  The evidence is building to say that
     the film is real.  So if you want to knock the footage, the
     only way you can knock the footage is really by looking at
     maybe myself and my company.
SC - Right.
RS - And you know, I accept that people have to do that.
SC - Now what about Ray. what about..I also read at one stage there
     were figures burnt into the film and another version the figures
RS - No.  All nonsense.  You're talking about the Sunday Times
SC - Yes.
RS - What had happened was that before the broadcasters were
     involved in the film, we were at the time going to produced
     our own documentary on the subject.  And we had logged each
     of the reels ourselves, in much the same way as you would a
     time-code.  Because what we'd done was, there's information
     on the cannisters which we felt maybe was relevant and we
     has superimposed that over certain sections of the film.
SC - Right.
RS - But all it is is logging information.
SC - And lets just remind people.  The film shows what?
RS - It's the..The viewable footage is a full autopsy and there's
     debris footage as well.  And then from there on the quality

SC - Just a second Ray, we're going to call Jazz in London.


SC - Jazz, Good morning.  You're on Talk Radio UK.
J  - Good Morning.
SC - Hi.
J  - Hi.
SC - What's your story Jazz?
J  - I had an encounter when I was about 14yrs old.  I was visiting
     an Old Peoples Home at the time, doing some community work with
     a friend.
SC - Jazz.  Can we talk about that in just a moment?  Lets talk about
     your knowledge of Roswell first.
J  - Yes certainly.  My background, as a result of the encounter that
     I mentionied, is that I went to study astro-physics at University,
     with a number of other disciplines.  And the Roswell incident and
     the various bits of information that have come out of it, suggest
     that the metals that were recovered from the crash site
     -supposedly linked in with the space-craft technology itself-
     were metals that were also being investigated by the US
     government just after the second world war, when they were trying
     to produce technologies to make ships invisable to Radar.
SC - Right.  So you believe what?
J  - There's two possibilities.  One, that the technology that people
     were talking about was already being developed by the US
     government.  And two, that the technologies were further developed
     after the crash in 1947.
JB - So do you feel that it was an experimental USAF aircraft that
     crashed rather than an alien.  And the hush-up was for security
J  - Both actually I think.  They were originally working on that
     particular material, and then by chance they happened to come
     across a lovely little UFO crash, which enabled them to actually
     develop that technology further.  And I think, personally, from
     my studies in aeronautics and astronautics, that they've actually
     been using it to develop stealth technologies, which I know   
     personally have been available since the 1970's, although they
     just recently..
JB - But you do believe that the Roswell crash was an extra-terrestrial
     vehicle of some kind.
J  - There's been too many witnesses.  And my own research suggests that
     that is definately the case.
JB - 
SC - So.  Right.  Now, so you think that Ray Santilli's film could very
      well be genuine?
J  - Now this is questionable.  Because I'm familiar with the film
     itself.  I've downloaded pictures off the I-Net that show the aliens.
     And some of the deformities, I think, which are associated with the
     hands -and the hands from classical anatomical pictures suggest that
     they are in fact deformities of an ordinary human being.  Whereas,
     the aliens which are pictured within the film, for me they could be
     either someone who has been genetically mutated, or either through
     some kind of radiation treatment or perhaps through a birth defect.
     If they are indeed aliens, then I think that the images that have
     actually been taken, should be taken seriously.  Because they do
     seem to resemble many features which are associated with aliens
     which are linked up to that particular incident.

SC - Right.  Now you're an astro-physicist?
J  - Ya.
SC - And you got into that game because at 12 what happened?
J  - I was with a friend I said.  I went to a community centre to help
     out old age people.  And while we were down there, waiting outside
     the wardens house, an X-shaped object flew overhead.  It was about
     50-69' just above the tree-line and going very slowly, I dunno,
     about 5-6m/h.  Absolutely silent.  Not a sound coming out of it.
     And we went home to his home afterwards, my friends home, and we
     sat down.  We were wondering what the hell it was that we saw.
     I spent the next week drawing pictures of it.  Trying to understand
     what it could possibly be.  And it encouraged me basically, to get
     involved in astronautics and aeronautical design.  And looking into
     the possibilites of what it could be.  But to this very day, all
     the planes I've seen.  All the aeronautical material I've seen, that
     you know, the variuos governments around the world have produced,
     suggests that whatever I saw, it wasn't of this Earth.
SC - So.  You've not just got an open mind as a scientist.  You actually
     tend towards the belief that we are being visited.
J  - I think there's plenty of belief in that for me.  Because lately,
     one of the things I've been involved in is looking into propolsion
     technologies for various kinds of space-craft.  And these
     technologies basically use shifts in gravitational fields to enable
     a craft to litterally open up a hole in space and time and travel
     from one region in space and time to another.  I mean, this
     technology was originally been developed by the US government just
     after the second world war, in an experiment known as the
     Philadelphia Experiment.

SC - (UM).  Thanks for that Jazz.  Back to you Ray.
RS - Hi.
RS - Jazz seems to think that your film might indeed be genuine.  I
     mean, he hasn't you know, here we have an astro-physicist who
     hasn't written it off.
RS - Well I mean firstly is a difficult subject.  And you know,
     we're waiting until the 28th of this month before we know the
     determination by the various broadcasters.  But as far as the
     cameraman is concerned, he can't tell you were the creatures came
     from.  He can't tell you were the vehicle came from.  When he was
     sent down there, he was told it was a Russian spy plane that had
     crashed.  When they all got there, they obviously knew that it
     wasn't.  But what the creature is, is a mystery to everyone at
     the moment.

PW - Ray, it's Phill here.  I've seen the film when you showed it to
     the directors of BUFORA and also at the conference.  I just want
     to say first, that in the actual UFO groups I don't think that
     anyone is actually having a go at you at all.  You come over as
     a really nice guy.  The main argument is some people believe the
     Roswell incident, some people don't and it's trying to put the
     film into context with that.  That's our main arguments.  I must
     admit I'm sceptical on the whole issue of the film being genuine.
     Because for the inconsistencies with reports in the past.  And I
     think the first criteria has got to be testing the film obviously,
     to try and ascertain the age.
RS - Yeah.
PW - Is the test going to be definately done for the 28th.
RS - The tests have already been done.
PW - Right.
RS - We had a fax this weekend actually from the states, to say that
     they've given us a 95% probability now that the film is 1947.
     They've actually determined that the film-stock is something
     called CineKodax SuperX-X which was discontinued in 1956.  And
     they can determine from the attributes of the film itself that
     it was shot within two years of manufacture.  And it's you
     know, obviously a very important piece of news for us.  And you
     know, that's unfortunately too late for the C4 programme.  But
     that's what we got in this weekend.
PW - 'Cause there were offers from Kodak..
RS - Yeah, we did Kodak at the very beginning, just in terms of the
     codes.  But this new report is from a more detailed examination.
     We've also given the film to NASA who have been refocasing images.
     Looking at reflective surface to see what's been going on behind
     the camera.  And from everything that I hear the footage and the
     film that goes out in America on the 28th is a very, very
     positive look at the events and the footage.
JB - Physically, how much film is there?  I mean, is it a huge..
RS - Physically?
JB - ..big canister of film, or.
RS - Well, yeah.  We took 22 reels of film from the cameraman.  But we
     only had..
JB - What was he doing with the film?
RS - Well each reel of film is about 3 minutes in duration.  And during
     the event itself he shot hundreds of cannisters of film.  What he
     did was, he seperated problem cannisters -either exposure problems
     or where the film had jammed or focas problems or whatever.  He
     sent the first batch back to Washington and retained the second
     batch just to work on in development.  And it was a coincidence
     really, because at that time -or just after that time- the army
     and the air-force split into two different divisions.  The army
     went one way and the air-force went in a different direction.  And
     he just simply called Washington on a continual basis to say come
     and pick up this second batch of film, it's part of the first job.
     And he was being passed around from pillar to post and in the end
     he just gave up.  He gave up hounding them on a weekly basis to
     pick up the film and he just stuck it in his archive.
PW - Ray..
RS - ..and that's how he kept it.
PW - much of the rest of the film.  Now you say we've got so
     many minutes that we've managed to see at the conference and that.
     The rest of the film isn't of good quality.  Is there, some of the
     rest of the film of the autopsies and some of the materials,
     quality enough to actually see something.  I know there's a
     difference between being able to broadcast it and..
RS - Yeah.  You know the problem that we have, is that we get jumped on
     from a very high height if somebody comes to us and says we're
     using film that's not authenticated or is a different film-stock
     or whatever.  So in order to play safe, the initial screenings
     here on the 28th, we've used only what we know to be completely
     verified and also you know, good viewable quality.  After that,
     the greyer areas of the film materials that we have can then be
PW - Right.  So we should be able to see more footage that'sof the
     poorer quality later.
RS - Yeah.  And you know, technology changes on an almost weekly basis
     and there could be the technology available where we can retrieve
     the image from the negative stock and so forth.
SC - Ray, you're sitting on probably the most sensational images ever
RS - .  I think so.
SC - Where's the original pal?

RS - The original?  We have.. well..the originals..apart from..
SC - I hope it's in a big vault somewhere.
RS - Yeah.  Yeah, I was going to say.  Switzerland, in a safe.  And
     that's about it really.  Some went back to the cameraman.  And some
     is still with us.
JB - Listen.  I believe you Ray.  There's no chance of getting a piece
     of the action is there?
RS - There isn't any action at the moment.
JB - We can handle the publicity for you Ray pal.  I'm in patnership
     with Scott here.
SC - Jeremy, no you're not pal.

SC - Ray.  It's been a pleasure talking to you.
RS - Thanks.
SC - Like to talk to you again soon.  Ray Santilli, who owns the rights
     to film supposedly shot in 1947, after a mysterious crash of a
     strange craft near the Roswell Air-Force base near New MExico.
     And the b&w footage supposedly shows human in white radiation
     suits performing an autopsy on aliens.
[Part V]

Straight-jackets at the ready...

C#5 [base names are spelt phonetically]

SC - Lets go to Harrogate.  Tony is there.  Tony Good Afternoon.  You're
     on Talk Radio UK.
T  - Good Afternoon Scott.
SC - Hello Tony.
T  - Hi.  And Good Afternoon to your guests.  Yes.  I was stationed in
     Cypres in 1966.  The base was RAF Episcappi.  And I worked at a
     place called the Near East Operations Centre, which was about a
     mile away from the main base.  In actuality it was just a
     collection of Nisson huts and what have you.  Anyway, I went into
     work this particular day.  It was a sort of bright Summers day.
     Not a cloud in the sky.  And I'd probably only been sat down for
     about half an hour and I heard everybody rushing outside and a bit
     of a commotion going on.  And I joined them.  And everyone was
     looking up into the sky at this what I can only describe as a very
     bright sphere.  It was very, very high up in the sky.  It wasn't a
     star or anything like that.  It was too large for a star.  Anyway
     the Duty Operations Officier, he conntacted the main base -which
     was Acaterri- which was about 15-20 miles away, and obviously
     they were concerned.  So much so that they scrambled a Lightening
     fighter aircraft to go and investigate.  So this was off and away
     in about 7 mminutes and we could actually see it from where we
     were.  We saw it shoot up in the sky.  And he reached his ceiling
     height, which I think -and I'm not quite sure of this- was about
     90,000'.  And by this time, they'd actually patched the RT
     communications from the aircraft to the control tower, through to
     us and we were listening on a loudspeaker.  And when he got to his
     ceiling, they said "Well what size".  Before they'd said that, he'd
     said the object looked no nearer to him at that height than when he
     was on the ground.  So they said "What size do you estimate the
     object to be?"  And he said, in his estimation, it was the size of
     a 300,000 ton ship.  Sorry a 3,000 ton ship.  So he could do no
     more, so he came back down.  And this object just remained in the
     same position.  And I think they took some kind of fix from the
     bases, to see if it was moving at all.  And everyone was thinking
     well is it a weather balloon, is it this, is it that.  And it
     remained in the same position for about 4-4.5 hrs.  And then it
     drifted, it didn't make any sudden movements and darting all over
     the sky; it just drifted away.

     And the next report we got was from Weillis Air-Force base, which
     was then in the Americans, and we had bases then in Libya.  And I
     saw the actual signal for that, in that we had our own
     communications center.  And over the next 24hrs, we kept getting
     reports from various US Air-Force bases, of the same object
     hovering over them.  And the last sighting, was at the US Air-Force
     base at Rhota in Spain.  And then it just disappeared.  Nobody has
     ever been able to come up with any explanation at all for it.
PW - Did they manage to get a Radar fix on it at all?
T  - I've no idea.  The only information that we got, was just this
     phone patch through to us.  But we got no feed back.
SC - Tony, when was this.  Waht year?
T  - 1966.
SC - Well how come you didn't know about this Phill? 
PW - There's lots of events that come in.
JB - No one had a camera, did they Tony?
T  - No.  No.  I mean, nobody had a camera at work.  I don't know how
     many people witnessed it over Acaterri.  Certainly nobody at the
     main base at Episcappi seemed to have seen it at all.
SC - What do you think Tony?
T  - I've just got no idea.
SC - .
T  - When people say UFO, to me that's exactly what it is.

T  - It's an Unidentified Flying Object.  Obviously, people were coming
     up with their own ideas.  Obviously, people were mentioning extra-
     terrestrials and all this sort of thing.
PW - It's difficult to get the information, because of the time.  You're
     talking 60's Cold War.  They're getting a lot more helpful now.
     The Russians were saying that hey had difficulty when they were
     trying to find out the Rocket trajectories for this thing with the
     rocket dust.  But they're opening up more and more.  And the
     information is being shared.  So in '66 '67, useless to try to get
     any information from the military, or from the government.
SC - You mean our own military.
PW - Oh yeah.  But nowadays..
SC - Do you think there's a cover-uo?
PW - No.  Well, cover-up in that some information isn't given out.  But
     it might be for sensible reasons.
SC - We don't want to scare the natives.
PW - No, no, no.  There's a lot of testing of equipment over the Arctic
     and Antarctic which sometimes strays into air space.  And people
     see it and then ask for, you know, what was that.  And when we ask
     the MOD and that, sometimes they'll tell us whether there was
     something there or not.  Sometimes they just can't say, because
     it's other peoples equipment.  The example is, I think, last year
     just before April Fools, sorry year before last, an American plane
     straying into Irish air space.  And they announced it pretty soon
     after it happened.  that they'd picked up this UFO etc.  But it
     turned out to be an American plane, but a rather secret one.  They
     didn't really want that information given away.  I mean, you can't
     test secret planes anywhere except for the Arctic and Antarctic
     in case they zoom over here.  So there's reason why they can't say.
     Certain government, I must admit, in the EEC are much more helpful.
     And Scandanavian governments seem to cooperate very well with their
     UFO researchers.  Much more open to the information and it solves
     a lot more problems.


SC - Let's go to Luton.  I want to squeeze in Peters call.  Peter, Good
     Afternoon.  You're on Talk Radio UK.  What's your story Peter?
P  - Good Afternoon Scott.

P  - I've had many a UFO sighting since an early age.  Since I was about
     5yrs old.  I'm now 38 and they still continue.  I've seen a being.
     I'm not going to say much more than that.  But a being, which didn't
     resemble any type of humanoid or human being in any way whatsoever.
     Apart from the fact that it had two hands.  That's the only thing.
     I've also seen a huge -and I mean a huge- object in the sky.
     Massive.  So big it would make a jumbo jet look like a dinky toy.
     But besides all this there's a couple of other things I would like
     to talk about.  And I understand Ray's gone now.
SC - Yes.
P  - But I had two newspaper cuttings in front of me.  One was the Sun
     newspaper taken on July 28th and the other was the People from July
     16th.  NOw, these are obviously two different pictures of the same
     type of being.  But on one being the right leg has got an identical
     injury -if you like- to the other one, who has the identical injury
     on the left leg.
SC - Right.
P  - Now if it's not something to do with the autopsy, it's a bit
     suspicious.  I must admit.
SC - No.  I'll tell you what happens regularly in newspapers.  They..
PW - I've seeen it as well.
SC - ..they switch, they reverse the photograph.
PW - But they actually did it at the conference.  Put a slide up the
     wrong way 'round.  And everyone went "'s on the other leg".
     And they said "No.  Slide's the wrong way around".
SC - Yeah.  That's true.  Having worked on newspapers, that's true.
     Peter, thanks.

SC - I want to talk to, very quickly Dr Ian Morrison, who's a radio
     astronomer.  Ian,  Good Afternoon to you.
IM - Good Afternoon to oyou.
SC - We haven't got very long to talk, Ian.
IM - No problem.
SC - You took part in SETI.  Search For Exra-Terrestrial Intellegence.
     Can you sum up for us what you've found.
IM - Well, so far nothing I'm afraid.  And in fact NASA unfortunately,
     were unable to continue funding of the SETI project themselves.
     It was hoped to run for around 10yrs, starting about a year and
     a half ago.  But they very kindly let a private institute take
     over all the very expensive equipment, which includes some
     fantastic radio receivers.  And the project continues.  It's now
     called Project Pheonix.  It's using a telescope at Parks[?]
     Australia.  And a telescope in America.  So they've now got about
     a years observation under their belt.  But I have to say that so
     far nothing really exciting has been picked up.
SC - But the search goes on.
IM - It certainly does.
SC - Ian, many thanks.  We must talk again soon.  Dr Ian Morrison, the
     radio astronomer.

SC - Phill, we've only got 30 seconds.  And Jeremy.  The search does go
     on and you have an open mind. 
PW - Oh yes.  We're putting, the conference has been financially very
     successful for us.  And all of that money is going into
     investigation and research.  We're building equipment.  We're trying
     to get positive information.
SC - Give us the number Phill.

PW- Right we've got a coouple of numbers.  You can do me on


    Central Office:
                    1 Wood Hall Drive.
                    West Yorkshire
                    WF1 77ro

    Phill Contact Address:
                    22 West Street.
                    B01 BRF

SC - Jeremy.  Are the people that have seen it, telling the truth?
JB - They are telling the truth.
[End Of Programme]

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